10:35 Thursday 1st March 2012
The JVS Show Three Counties Radio
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: Over a week ago I spoke to Jill about her son. Now he’s 23 now, and has been smoking cannabis since he was 14. It’s now dominating his life, and he’s become addicted to it. His wife has kicked him out, no longer able to cope with his drug taking. He’s stolen from his parents to fund his dependency, and he’s just not able to have a relationship with his young son that most fathers would want, as a result of his drug taking. Well when I spoke to Jill, I had Del Conlan, a drug rehabilitation counsellor from Trust the Process in Luton on the programme as well. After hearing Jill’s story, Dale made a staggering offer to Jill. He said that he’d arrange a 12 week rehab. programme for Jill’s son. This is what happened next. (TAPE)
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: Jill, I want you to tell him now. He’s sitting there next to you. Tell him now. You’ve got two options today. Either you go to Trust the Process counselling for three months now, or this afternoon he’s leaving the house. Tell him that now.
JILL: You’ll go to counselling Martin and get some rehab. treatment for three months, and you stay here. Otherwise if you don’t decide to do that, then you’re going. Then you’re out today. Do you understand? They can help you. Someone can help you in rehab. And unless you’re going to accept that, then you’re out on the streets today. Do you understand? Are you agreeing to that. He’s nodding his head. He’s agreeing.
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: He’s prepared to go into rehab.
JILL: Yes. (LIVE)
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: Well on the day that Jill’s son was due to go into rehab. surprise surprise he changed his mind. Jill says that she just can’t get through to him. (TAPE)
JILL: There’s no-one that he’ll listen to. That’s the other thing, He won’t listen to anybody. There’s nobody in the family. Even my brother’s tried talking to him. He had him working with him for while he taught him to do painting and decorating. And he can’t get through to him either. There’s nobody that can get through to my son. Nobody. And they say that most drug users do realise that it’s not till they get help that they really realise they needed it.
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: Yeah.
JILL: And he’s got to get to that point. And it’s not happened yet.
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: I know it’s really tough what you have done in terms of making that break from him.
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: But I do think in the long run that will actually speed up the process of him finally realising he needs help.
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: Because let’s face it, he’s not going to stay with this mate for long, is he?
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: Because he’s either .. something’s going to go wrong ..
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: .. or something won’t work out. The mate will get rid of him. And he needs to get to that point ..
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: .. of sitting there, in the gutter, looking at himself.
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: And thinking, I need to change this. I don’t want this for my life. And at the moment, while people keep putting up with his bad behaviour, and giving him somewhere to sleep, food on the table, while he can then go and spend all of his money that he’s receiving on drugs ..
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: He’s not going to change, is he?
JILL: No. He’s basically just going to be a drifter, and a loser, basically. He’s just going to drift in and out of life, hanging on to one person to help him out. And then they’ll drop him, and then that’s what .. it’s awful to think that your son is going to have .. you can foresee his future. He’s going to be nothing and nobody. And that’s what’s so upsetting. Really. (WEEPS) It’s so upsetting.
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: Jill, listen, I want you to keep in touch with me. I’m going to catch up with you next week. I’m not going to go away on this.
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: One way or the other, we’re going to sort your son out. (LIVE)
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: Well saying that Jil’s son was addicted to cannabis prompted a bit of a debate on Twitter. There seemed to be disagreement on whether you can be addicted to cannabis. There’s research to say that it may not be a physical addiction, but you can have an emotional addiction to cannabis. I also received an email from Peter Reynolds from Cannabis Law Reform. Now he was concerned that we were showing cannabis in a negative light. And he felt that as the head of a political party that wants to change the laws governing its use, he wanted to have the opportunity to put the other side of the story forward. .. Peter Reynolds is with me now. Good morning Peter.
PETER REYNOLDS: Good morning Jonathan.
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: Anything good about cannabis?
PETER REYNOLDS: There’s lots and lots of things good about cannabis. It’s one of natures’s or God’s greatest gifts to mankind. The first thing to say is that obviously Jill, and her son Martin, are in the middle of a family tragedy. And while I have enormous sympathy for them ..
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: Caused by cannabis and his addiction to it.
PETER REYNOLDS: .. and quite quite clearly cannabis is not a good thing for Martin. But there are millions of people in Britain who use cannabis for a variety of reasons, some of whom will use it for medicinal reasons, where it transforms their lives. It rescues them from pain, disability and suffering, in a safe and effective way that no other medicine can. I think the important thing to do is to give you some facts. Ok? First of all, addiction is not a word that is used by doctors these days. The word they use is dependence. And it is true that cannabis does produce a mild dependency in about 9% of users. And that’s almost exactly the same number ..
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: Mild dependency. This is a man who has chosen cannabis over his wife, over his son, over his mum, over his dad, over everybody. Over his life, he’s chosen cannabis.
PETER REYNOLDS: An appalling story, and one feels terribly sorry for him and enormous sympathy for his family. You’re talking about an anecdote. And I have enormous sympathy for this one instance. But there are three million people in Britain who use cannabis at least once a week. In Britain we consume about three tons of cannabis every day. Ok? To put it in perspective again, Martin’s story is a tragedy, but in Britain, every year there are about 750 people admitted to hospital with behavioural problems relating to cannabis. There are about 3,000 people admitted to hospital every year for peanuts. That puts the thing in proper proportion. That’s not to say that every single one of those people admitted to hospital for cannabis is a tragedy, and every single one of those people admitted to hospital for peanuts is a tragedy. But we don’t go and spend millions, in fact half a billion pounds on police and law enforcement resources, trying to stamp out peanuts.
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: So you make it sound as if Jill’s son is really a very isolated case.
PETER REYNOLDS: Well he is, and I’ve just given you figures to support that. I can give you some more figures.
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: So there won’t be people listening to my programme who have in their families also witnessed the devastating effect that cannabis can have.
PETER REYNOLDS: Well there may be. There may be. But there will be many more people who will witness the positive effects that cannabis can have.
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: OK. Well let’s .. you’ve just spouted some statistics on the programme. What about the other statistics of the number of people for whom .. become completely involved with much harder drugs like cocaine, like heroin, like ecstasy, of which cannabis is the gateway drug.
PETER REYNOLDS: Well the gateway theory is a theory that’s been around for something like about 75 years, and it’s been disproved time and time again. And the Government’s expert committee, the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs, in their latest report into cannabis in 2008, said there was no evidence to show that the gateway theory is a valid theory. It’s just as valid to say that the first substance people took was mothers’ milk, and therefore all those people who took mothers’ milk moved on to use cannabis, and moved on to use alcohol, and moved on to use heroin. It’s a fallacious argument.
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: A lot of people have said, on programmes I have done over the years, that cannabis used to be better than it is now. And one of the major problems is the fact that the type of cannabis that is being sold, and the type of cannabis that people are smoking, it’s a much stronger form than ever before. And that is why we are now seeing the number of people who are being psychologically affected by the use of cannabis increasing so enormously.
PETER REYNOLDS: Well first of all, the last point you made is simply not true Jonathan. There isn’t a massive increase in the number of people being psychologically affected by cannabis. I’ve just given you the statistics, and if you look on the NHS database about the number of people admitted to hospital, or to psychiatric institutions, the figure is stable. It’s not increasing at all.
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: Let me ask you a very direct question. Can you be addicted to cannabis?
PETER REYNOLDS: You can experience a dependency to cannabis. Addiction used to require .. Martin, from what you’re saying to me, from the evidence I hear from your show, Martin clearly is addicted to cannabis. Because addiction means that you require more and more of the substance to get the same effect, that you develop a tolerance to it, that you would experience withdrawal symptoms, physical withdrawal symptoms, and thirdly that it affects your life in such a way that you would put the normal everyday things of life like having a proper relationship with your family, behind using the drug. So those three criteria make up addiction, and it sounds like Martin is. But the fact of the matter is, as I say, most people, the vast majority of people who use cannabis, it’s a much much safer substance than alcohol ..
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: Ok.
PETER REYNOLDS: It’s something like 80 to 100 times safer than alcohol, if you look at all the data. It’s something like 1000 times safer than tobacco. In terms of medicinal use, and this is where the real tragedy of this is, that because of our ridiculous non-scientific based laws, people who need cannabis as medicine are denied it.
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: Well what I’m interested in as always on this programme, is people’s individual experiences. Let me put two of those experiences to you that’s come in on text while we’ve been talking. Ann in Luton says, ” My brother smoked cannabis from the age of 14 to 40. He now has a lung disease. He’s really suffering. Don’t tell me it’s any good.” says Ann. Gary texts in as well .. saying “Cannabis has destroyed my six year relationship. My girlfriend ended up with serious mental issues. I’m now with a wonderful new partner. My ex- has still got problems, 14 years on.” says Gary. These are real people texting in to talk about their experiences with this drug that you say has so many positives.
PETER REYNOLDS: There are many many positives to cannabis. I’m not saying there aren’t any negatives. Cannabis is a psychoactive substance. It’s an incredibly powerful medicine, therefore it has the potential for harm. But if you want to talk about policy, if you want to talk about practical steps as to what to do, then what you need to do is talk about a properly regulated system, where somebody of 14 years of age would find it a lot more difficult to get cannabis than they do at the moment.
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: But then do we not add yet another drug to the number of legal drugs that are on the market that also have .. ? For example, if you would like cannabis to be more widely available, if you want it to be regulated ..
PETER REYNOLDS: I didn’t say I want it more widely available. The control and availability of it ..
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: So are you talking about decriminalisation?
PETER REYNOLDS: No I’m not talking about decriminalisation, because in a lot of ways that’s the worst possible argument.
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: Are you talking about legalisation?
PETER REYNOLDS: I’m talking about regulation, legal regulation.
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: So ultimately, people being able to legally get hold of cannabis.
PETER REYNOLDS: Adults being able to go to a licensed outlet.
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: Right.
PETER REYNOLDS: And being able to purchase cannabis which is properly labelled, so they know what the contents of it is. Coming back to your point about modern cannabis, it’s true that there is more .. there’s a higher ratio of THC to CBD, the two principal ingredients in modern cannabis. And there’s a direct parallel to this with alcohol prohibition in the US. When alcohol became prohibited in the US, gradually the market moved to higher and higher strengths of alcohol hooch as it’s famously known. Because that’s what illegality does. When you make something illegal, you prohibit something, and the cost goes up, criminals become more and more interested in it.
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: And that’s the point, isn’t it? That even if it were legally available, people would still want to get hold of the strongest stuff.
PETER REYNOLDS: That’s exactly what doesn’t happen. What happened in the US when alcohol prohibition was ended was hooch went, and people went back to drinking beer and wine. Because the market finds its own level. When something is prohibited, and criminals are involved, inevitably they move towards trying to make stronger and stronger varieties of it.
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: So as far as you’re concerned, it is all good. It is all positive.
PETER REYNOLDS: No that’s exactly what I didn’t say, did I? I did not say that at all. I said there are dangers in cannabis, as there are dangers in any substance. And particularly there are dangers in it for young people. And what we need in order to protect young people and the vulnerable is a regulated system, where .. if you go to a .. we need to take the dealers off the streets. The only ID that a dealer asks for from a 14 year old is a £20 note. What we need is a situation where adults can go and buy cannabis from a licensed retailer, and the cannabis will be labelled with the contents of THC and CBD available.
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: Ok.
PETER REYNOLDS: And of somebody does have a problem with it, because it’s not illegal and prohibited, they’ll be able to go and find help about it.
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: Peter, let me bring Ali in Hemel into the conversation. Morning to you Ali.
ALI FROM HEMEL: Morning. How you guy’s doing alright?
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: Yeah. What would you like to say Ali?
ALI FROM HEMEL: Well firstly I’d like to say about the lady that called in about her child dependent on cannabis. I just wanted to make a point is when people use cannabis at a more younger age, they can have a different effect on them, whereas if there’s someone with mentally more mature, for example over the age of 18, it has different effects on them on their mind.
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: How do you know this?>
ALI FROM HEMEL: Well, when I used to be a student, when you’re a student you delve into .. you have a little party, someone has it there, they pass it to you, you try it. So when I was a student, I did try it. Yes.
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: Has that had any negative effect on you?
ALI FROM HEMEL: Well not really. You get a little bit of giggles. You might get the munchies afterwards. But apart from that, nothing really. I just wanted to say, there’s a lot of things cannabis has benefits with. For example, it tackles anxiety. It tackles stress. It tackles depression.
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: Yes but a lot of .. and I wonder whether Peter you can address this point .. because when I was at university, there were a couple of guys on my halls of residence who smoked cannabis all day long. And to be absolutely honest, yes they didn’t have any anxiety at all.
PETER REYNOLDS: (LAUGHS)
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: They hardly had any brain cells to be honest. All they ever used to do is walk around (MIMICS) talking like this.
PETER REYNOLDS: The thing you’re saying about brain cells is classic disinformation and propaganda.
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: No it’s not propaganda. it’s my experience of seeing how two guys’ personality was completely changed because of a drug.
PETER REYNOLDS: Listen, if somebody sits around and smokes cannabis all day, it’s not going to do them any good. If somebody sits around and plays computer games it’s not going to do them any good. If somebody sits around and does alcohol all day, it’s not going to do them any good. If somebody sits around and drinks coffee all day it’s not going to do them any good. But cannabis, or the endocannabinoid system, is directly implicated in neurogenesis, the production of new brain cells in the hippocampus. Cannabis does not kill brain cells. Cannabis stimulates the production of new brain cells.
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: (LAUGHS) Really?
PETER REYNOLDS: Really.
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: I would love .. I can’t even remember the guys’ names.
PETER REYNOLDS: If you’d like me to, when I get off the phone, I’ll send you the link to a number of scientific studies proving that.
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: Well I’d love to just try and get hold of the two guys that I lived with at university, and speak to them now. And I wonder whether their brain cells are vibrant and whether they’re full of intelligence now.
PETER REYNOLDS: Well I don’t know. Anybody who sits around and smokes cannabis all day while they’re at university and supposed to be studying is not really following a very sensible path, are they?
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: OK. Ali, thank you for your call. Let’s bring John in Buckinghamshire in. Hi John.
JOHN IN BUCKINGHAMSHIRE: Hiya.
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: Hello. Is there anything good about cannabis John?
JOHN IN BUCKINGHAMSHIRE: no. It’s wrecked lives. It’s wrecked the lives of my nephew. Even his drug dealer had him commit crime. He ended up in prison. All kinds of stuff that’s just horrible. And he was stealing. He stole from everybody. I wanted to blow a hole in this little argument about prohibition. You see, when people smoke cannabis or any other drug, they get a high. And they get a high that you can never achieve naturally. And so they’re always chasing that high. And that’s the reason why they’re always taking more and more. Because every time they get up to the .. they try to get that high again, they can never quite reach it. And so it perpetuates again and again and again. Unlike alcohol, where you take alcohol probably because you’re sad or you start off perhaps wanting to just have it for a bit of fun and it’s harmless, whwn you overdo that, you’re just looking to forget things. With drugs, you’re seeking a high.
PETER REYNOLDS: (LAUGHS)
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: Peter, you don’t agree?
PETER REYNOLDS: Not at all. No. Apologies to John, was it?
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: John. Yes.
PETER REYNOLDS: Well, I mean. What nonsense. Alcohol is an enormously damaging substance. It’s inherently poisonous to the body. People use it for whatever reason they choose, a relaxant or whatever. The two things are like comparing chalk and cheese. Alcohol is a poison. Cannabis ..
JOHN IN BUCKINGHAMSHIRE: Well don’t compare them then. You’re the one who compared them and said, oh, it’s just prohibition. It’s not prohibition at all. It’s really simple. When people take drugs, they screw them up, they make them paranoid. When people take .. I’ve got two nephews who took this, and every time they’re on it, you knew, because they were completely paranoid.
PETER REYNOLDS: These are anecdotes.
JOHN IN BUCKINGHAMSHIRE: They’re not anecdotes.
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: Peter you don’t seem to want to hear the real experiences from real people that have been affacted by cannabis. All you want to do is talk about statistics and say, well statistically all these people are taking it and having a lovely old time.
PETER REYNOLDS: No, that’s not what I said at all. Clearly, if one’s talking about policy, or what one can do about those very few people who do fall .. who are vulnerable in some way or another to cannabis, if you want to talk about policy then you have to talk about it on a rational basis.
JOHN IN BUCKINGHAMSHIRE: Yes. There’s a rational .. go and look at Holland. Go and look at Holland. If you really want to do it that much, go over there and let everybody else try and get their kids to stop stealing. We had a guy on Three Counties last week who’s poor mother was trying to get him into rehab. And he was stealing from her. I just thought it was absolute mirror .. (?)
PETER REYNOLDS: Anecdote doesn’t make ..
JOHN IN BUCKINGHAMSHIRE: Anecdotes! What do you mean? These are people’s lives.
PETER REYNOLDS: I know they are.
JOHN IN BUCKINGHAMSHIRE: You dismiss them and call them anecdotes. They’re people’s lives. The people they stole from. The jobs that they lost.
PETER REYNOLDS: Am I on the BBC?
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: Go on Peter. You respond.
PETER REYNOLDS: Am I on the BBC, or am I on Daily Mail Radio?
JOHN IN BUCKINGHAMSHIRE: (LAUGHS)
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: No, no, Peter. You’ve had 22 minutes so far for you to be able to have your say. So I don’t think in any way you can try and argue you’re not having an opportunity to have your say.
PETER REYNOLDS: I’m not arguing that at all. But to take from tragic individual stories, and extend those into massive generalisations, when there are millions of people using cannabis extremely safely, and extremely effectively. Archeological studies now show that we’ve been using cannabis as a psychoactive substance and as a relaxant for 27,000 years.
JOHN IN BUCKINGHAMSHIRE: (LAUGHS)
PETER REYNOLDS: It’s only in the last 80 years that cannabis has been prohibited.
JOHN IN BUCKINGHAMSHIRE: I didn’t know we’d been keeping records for 27,000 years on cannabis. It’s amazing, isn’t it. I guess you believe everything you read on the internet as well, don’t you?
PETER REYNOLDS: I’m sorry?
JOHN IN BUCKINGHAMSHIRE: I guess you believe everything you read on the internet. (INDISTINCT) .. publish there, just for the hell of it.
PETER REYNOLDS: Well I think I must be on Daily Mail Radio now. What I’m talking to you about is peer-reviewed scientific studies. And I suggest what you need to do, if you want to make this debate coherent and sensible, is you need to look at evidence.
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: OK. John, thank you very much indeed for making your point. And I do assure you Peter, this is the BBC.
PETER REYNOLDS: Thank you.
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: Let’s bring Andy in Bedford in. Hi Andy.
ANDY IN BEDFORD: Morning Jonathan.
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: Hello. You’re through to both of us. What point would you like to make?
ANDY IN BEDFORD: I’m undecided on the whole thing. I’ve seen a friend suffer psychosis. He was a heavy cannabis user. I actually met him when I was in a psychiatric unit myself, and he blamed much of his psychosis on cannabis. And I believe there’s some evidence to suggest that some people may be genetically predisposed to develop a psychosis if they smoke cannabis. But on the other hand, my late wife was an oncology nurse. In the States they have a medicine derived from cannabis for appetite .. that stimulates cannabis (cancer?) patients appetite again. So recreationally or irresponsibly used it could be a bad thing, but then again. like many dangerous plants, psychoactive plants, we can derive life-saving or life-altering medicines from it.
PETER REYNOLDS: Absolutely.
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: OK. But do you want a .. are you talking then Peter about cannabis being turned into a tablet that is given to people on prescription by a doctor? Or are you talking about people going out and buying a little bag of what looks like mixed spice, and then putting it in some form of cigarette?
PETER REYNOLDS: Well there’s two different things here, aren’t there? There’s recreational use, responsible recreational use by adults, and there’s medicinal use. Cannabis is already available on prescription in this country. It’s called Sativex. The myth that is promoted is that Sativex is an extract of two particular components of cannabis. That’s not true. And if you speak to GWPharma which is the pharmaceutical company involved, they’ll confirm that. The problem is that Sativex is sold to the NHS at ten times the price that cannabis is available on the streets. And that means that many PCTs are simply not prepared to pay for it. And one of the huge injustices that is going on in this country at the moment is the people who are being prescribed Sativex by their doctor, and who’s PCT is refusing to pay for it, these people are growing themselves a few plants in their greenhouse, or under lights in their loft and whatever. And they’re being arrested and sent to jail.
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: Andy, thank you very much indeed for your call. I just want to put this text that’s come in from someone. Sadly it’s anonymous, which is a bit unfair really, because it is having a bit of a go at you, but I’ll read it anyway. It says “My 16 year old son has been smoking cannabis for two years. He is withdrawn and short-fused. He steals because he can’t be bothered to work. He sits around his friends’ houses. They get completely out of their faces. Because my husband and I refuse to let him smoke it in our house he ran away for three days. This happened three times before he moved in with his friend, and refused to come back. In my opinion, cannabis destroyed the good relationship I had with my son. He won’t give it up, because of idiots like Peter who sit and promote it.” says this angry anonymous texter.
PETER REYNOLDS: Well again clearly this anonymous texter is going through a family difficulty. But many people go through family difficulties with teenagers of that age. Teenagers shouldn’t be using cannabis. And the sooner we get the dealers off the streets, and introduce a regulated system where it’s available to adults only, then the sooner we’ll be able to do some more to protect our children and protect vulnerable people.
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: Got some more emails that are coming through as well on this. Jim says, “My son is on cannabis and has been for about 20 years. He’s paranoid. You can’t tell him anything. Even his daughter is about to fall out with him. It’s all because of the cannabis.” says Jim. I know you keep talking about, well these are all anecdotes. These are my listeners who are contacting the programme.
PETER REYNOLDS: I’m not denying the difficulty or the truth of what these people are saying at all. What I’m trying to put to you is a more rational more scientifically based more sensible policy, which would help to minimise that. You mentioned Holland earlier. Let me tell you a fact about Holland that may surprise you. in Europe, Holland as you know has something of a sort of regulated system for cannabis, where basically adults can buy up to five grams from a coffee shop. Holland has the highest age at first use in Europe. So in other words, children if you like are older in Holland before they try cannabis than anywhere else in Europe. And Britain has one of the lowest ages of first use. Part of that I think is due to the forbidden fruit argument, but a lot of it is due to the fact that the supply of cannabis is controlled by criminals. And criminals, as I said earlier, don’t care how old their customer is. As long as they’ve got the £20 note, or whatever it is, they’ll sell them the cannabis.
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: Listen Peter, you’ve come in for a lot of criticism in this half-hour. And I want to finish on something that’s in support of you. From Sean who says, ” JVS, legalise cannabis in the UK. Cannabis is good. It’s a plant. It was here before drink. Some people can handle it, some people can’t. I’ve been smoking it for about four or five years. I’m fine. I’ve never been ill. I still live my life. And I know people who’ve been smoking it for years. Look, it can’t be that bad, if other countries use it.” says someone who is in complete support. Peter, I hope you feel you’ve had your say.
PETER REYNOLDS: I do. I’m very grateful to you for giving me the time.
JONATHAN VERNON-SMITH: Thank you very much indeed for joining me on the programme this morning. There’s Peter Reynolds, who’s from the Cannabis Law Reform.